Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by George Little on March 7, 2009 at 11:59am

James, this is a good question for a lot of reasons. I really appreciate Paul Smith's thoughts.

After a long personal journey I had to submit to the biblical prerequisites for baptism. They are faith in Christ. Jesus states it clearly when He says that "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved". Faith in Christ is all we bring to the salvation experience. "By grace you have been saved through faith". In that trust in Christ we turn from sin (repent).

If a person says that they believe in Jesus as God's son, who am it to deny that they do and to deny baptism to them?

Historically, some of our heritage has focused on what a person believes about baptism. It was thought that you couldn't be baptized correctly unless you understood what you were receiving in baptism. I used to strongly believe this. However, it is false. If our knowledge of the results of baptism is a prerequisite, then we must forever wonder if we got all the details right.

Jimmy Allen captured this well in his book, Re-Baptism, from years ago. He spoke of the large numbers of our heritage who did not believe they personally received the Holy Spirit when they were baptized. Did God refuse these ones entry into the kingdom because they believed something incorrectly about what they were to receive when they were baptized? No. Then why should we deny the validity of a person's baptism because the didn't understand about the reception of the forgiveness of sins?

This does not mean that we do not teach people completely about the great grace that God opens up to us upon our spiritual burial in baptism. They may not understand all the details even after you teach them. However they must have enough understanding to have faith in Christ. If they are not a believer in Jesus as they descend into the water then it is a bath with no spiritual significance. The power in baptism is not in the water, it is in the resurrection of Jesus and our faith in Christ through that resurrection (2 Peter 3:21).

So, what does a person need to know to be baptized? From scripture I can only conclude that a person needs to know (have faith) that Jesus is the Son of God. Not perfect faith. Just imperfect, human faith in the perfect and divine son.

It is interesting to note historically that "candidates" for baptism over the centuries have been subjected to a wide variety of hurdles they must jump through before they can be baptized. Baptism came to be the final step in getting your life together before God would save you. Yet, in scripture, it is very close to the beginning. It is also interesting to note that the the longest delay between an acknowledgement of faith in Jesus and baptism was three days and that was forced on the situation by God (Paul's baptism).

Another great topic. Keep it up.

Permalink Reply by Gerald White on March 7, 2009 at 6:58pm

This is a question that is asked very often. We use about a 2 hour study doing the same thing of making sure who Jesus is, what he did for us and how he expects us to live.

The teaching on Pentecost and with Cornelius set much of the pattern.

I am new to the blog area but would like to see comments on how we can improve our followup with new Christians.

Permalink Reply by Bill Bowman on March 8, 2009 at 1:34pm

Hi James:

As an example of what happened in Ephesus...ch. 4:20-24

As I see it they were taught the following before they knew Christ:

* They were to put off their former way of life and put on the new life in Christ.
* They were to change their attitudes to that of Christ's.

All the above is in past tense.

Then Paul uses present tense and further teaches them as baptized believers how to live: 4:25 to end of Eph. letter

What does Acts 19 say about those who had not yet responded to Christ? (They were in Ephesus)
(When one is baptized in a given person's name, he must believe and follow what that person taught.)

Here is what was important to Paul:

* What person did you respond to in your baptism? Answer John
* What did he ask you to follow? Answer: A life of repentance

* Now I am asking you to be baptized in Jesus Christ's name.
* But you must believe and follow Him in your life.

I believe when one is baptized, he must understand that if he believes in Christ, he must follow Him.
The specific teaching can come later as it did with the Ephesians.

Most of what we know about baptism was written to people already Christians. I see nothing wrong with motivating people not to wait to be baptized based on what happens when we are baptized...forgiveness of sins, put Christ on..etc.
Whatever was taught to those in Acts 2, 8, 9, 10, 16, 18, 19 22 spurred them on to be baptized immediately. In most cases we just have to say actions speak where there are few words.

We must be careful, depending on the individual, not to feed meat to them if they are still spiritual babes.

Legalism can be an issue, but that is another subject.

Bill Bowman

Permalink Reply by James Nored on March 10, 2009 at 10:35am

To Paul and George, we are on the same page. Jimmy Allen is following in a long line of what I believe John Mark Hicks calls the "Nashville Tennessee Bible School" of thought of David Lipscomb, James Harding, and their intellectual descendants. Lipscomb was a pretty "conservative" fellow. And yet, for him, obedience-- not understanding--was key. When he was asked if "to obey God" was a good reason for being baptized, he said, "I can think of no better reason."

What other practice do we have where we say that full understanding, rather than obedience, is what determines the efficacy of the act? And with our own children, would we condemn them because they did not fully understand something we told them to do, but did it anyway out of love and obedience to us? I cannot imagine doing such.

Personally, finding a signifcant strain of understanding of baptism such as that espoused by Lipscomb and others, combined with biblical study, has helped me to emphasize the heart and intent of the person being baptized, not their full understanding. Paul continued to teach and remind his readers of the implications of their baptism.

As our Paul here says, there are many biblical reasons for baptism, and I doubt seriously we knew them all when we were baptized. I certainly did not. For heaven's sake, I did not even really understand the resurrection until college. (If I understand it now.) The primary thing a person must understand is not baptism, but Jesus--who he is, the life he calls us to, and our desire to follow him. In fact, it is not even understanding this that is the main point--it is a desire to do these things. So I now spend much more time making sure a person understands and wants to follow Jesus when I study with a person today, rather than making understanding baptism the primary thing. Otherwise, they are likely to receive their salvation and go on their merry way. (Transactional salvation)

Permalink Reply by James Nored on March 15, 2009 at 4:58pm

Tiffany was baptized into Christ this morning. Hallelujah! She is such an inspiring young woman who clearly wants to live for Jesus. Also, her parents and sister traveled here from Abilene, and she invited her friend, Will. I believe that she will touch many lives for Christ. Praise God!

Permalink Reply by Peter Horne on April 13, 2009 at 2:23pm

I'm a newbie on the site but this question hits close to home for me. I was an intern at a church when a man turned up and wanted to be baptized (he'd been raised in the church but hadn't attended for years). The minister baptized him. It was part of my role to study with him afterward. One of his first questions was, "I know who God the Father is and the Holy Spirit, but why is Jesus called the Son?" This question arose because he'd been baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

We spent quite a few weeks talking about the incarnation and the deity of Christ. But I struggled with the question of whether this was something he could learn afterward, or did he need to know it prior to baptism so that he could be baptised into Christ, the Son. In the end I taught him as best I could and left the decision on whether to be rebaptised up to him. He decided not to be. But these days I try and make sure people I study with have a good understanding of this question.

I've notice previous posters say that baptism prospects have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. But what does that mean? Do they have to accept the incarnation, his deity, his relationship with the Father, the Trinity? Or is it sufficient to believe that God sent Jesus from heaven as an acceptable sacrifice for our sins, and that because of his death on the cross we can be forgiven and have relationship with God - f only we will accept his gift of grace by being baptised?

Permalink Reply by James Nored on April 13, 2009 at 2:41pm

Hi Peter. This is a good question. In general, I seek to make sure that a person has a good understanding of what "Son of God" means. Of course, the incarnation, Trinity, etc., is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. This is why I say "in general." They may not have all of this 100% sorted out, but it would seem that they would need to understand that Jesus is God, sent from heaven to earth to redeem us. Understanding who Jesus is central to the Christian faith. I'll be interested in hearing what others have to say.

Peter Horne said:

I'm a newbie on the site but this question hits close to home for me. I was an intern at a church when a man turned up and wanted to be baptized (he'd been raised in the church but hadn't attended for years). The minister baptized him. It was part of my role to study with him afterward. One of his first questions was, "I know who God the Father is and the Holy Spirit, but why is Jesus called the Son?" This question arose because he'd been baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

We spent quite a few weeks talking about the incarnation and the deity of Christ. But I struggled with the question of whether this was something he could learn afterward, or did he need to know it prior to baptism so that he could be baptised into Christ, the Son. In the end I taught him as best I could and left the decision on whether to be rebaptised up to him. He decided not to be. But these days I try and make sure people I study with have a good understanding of this question.

I've notice previous posters say that baptism prospects have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. But what does that mean? Do they have to accept the incarnation, his deity, his relationship with the Father, the Trinity? Or is it sufficient to believe that God sent Jesus from heaven as an acceptable sacrifice for our sins, and that because of his death on the cross we can be forgiven and have relationship with God - f only we will accept his gift of grace by being baptised?

Permalink Reply by James Nored on May 9, 2009 at 11:01am

Wow. I have never watched Nacho Libre, despite being a Jack Black fan. It looked too bad to get through. I'm beginning to think my judgment was correct . . . What a theologian! :)

Garth Hope said:

I thought this might help the discussion.

Permalink Reply by James Nored on May 9, 2009 at 9:24pm

Deep questions, Paul. This may cause us to question everything . . . .