Comment

Comment by George Little on March 6, 2009 at 11:41am

Amen to that Lyn. The "right information leads to right behavior" is a false concept and yes we did buy into it. We do need to be teaching the right information but it needs to be in the context of a relationship of some kind and in the context of a receptive heart for it to be effective.

That's why Jesus said the most important thing we can do is to love God and love people. In that context a lot of learning occurs.

So glad you brought this up.

Comment by Dorris (Dottie) Schulz on March 6, 2009 at 11:36am

http://www.cpmtr.org/2009/01/21/inductive-bible-study-process/

Have any of you guys heard of the three column Bible study?

Comment by Lynn S. Nored on March 5, 2009 at 11:25pm

This is a very interesting question. Having been in missions ( thought only up to 10- weeks at a time) in many diverse countries and cultures, one would think we would come across those who have come to some basic understanding of the gospel message of the body of Christ without a teacher if this is possible. And, indeed that is the case--though extremely rare. More common anecdotally or those small groups who come to a common understanding together.

I have recently finished a lesson on Christian Education ( bible classes ) and Spiritual Formation. I am struck by how much our fellowship has bought into the Greek idea of right thinking lead to right action. We have bought into the idea that one needs in depth "head knowledge" in order to be a disciple. And, in effect, have abandoned true equipping, mentoring, apprenticeship approaches more in line with the early church ( and Jesus himself). So, yes a teacher is probably necessary in most cases. On the other hand, John says these things are written that you might believe --which means the Word itself is the true teacher.

Don't get me wrong. I am very much an "idea and concepts" person and do not discount it's value. But, somehow the "teaching" that has gone on really hasn't changed that many lives. So, perhaps we need to reexamine what the scripture really means by "teacher"--- Is it the Greek concept of providing truth by head knowledge, reason, and logic. Or is it more the mentoring and Hebrew concept of a "teacher"? And in light of John 20:30-31 what is the role of scriptures vs the role of the "teacher'?

Comment by George Little on March 5, 2009 at 2:00pm

Good point. God's family needs to be known and to know themselves by what they are FOR. Not by what they are against. We come from a great heritage in the restoration movement but it really started to bother me years ago when I realized I knew more about what I was against and knew very little about what I was for. I knew the scriptures from the point of view of what they disproved. The focus of the early church was on what the were FOR and that can be summarized in two words, Jesus Christ.

I know some things need to be disproved and corrected but the majority of our message should be Jesus, the way, the truth and the life.

I recall a popular Bible study for seekers that I used to use that would try to convince the seeker of everything from worship styles to church organization to the name of the church. I wonder what would happen if we just opened our Bibles and preached Jesus. I think we are starting to see just that. However it bothers many that the result isn't a particular brand of church. God's word is a seed and when it is planted in purity it produces disciples of Jesus. Those disciples coalesce into local church families the they inevitably ended up looking different. That's hard on us in the West who are so hung up on brands and conformity. The only conformity that Christ's church is to have is conformity to Christ Jesus.

Comment by James Nored on March 5, 2009 at 1:03pm

David, you say, "Some of our conclusions and stances are based on seeing negative implications of doing things a different way" Very true. In fact, one might even say that we have had a negative way of reading Scripture. We are looking for God to give us permission on every single act. But is this the only way to look at Scripture? In fact, is this how we approach our relationship with our children--that they cannot do anything until we give them permission? And that we will punish them, even if they did something unknowingly? Or do we tell our children specifically some things, while still giving them freedom in a lot of different areas? Obviously, this goes to hermeneutics, but I am seeking to put this in the context of a relationship.

Comment by David Duncan on March 5, 2009 at 11:52am

You follow exactly what I intended! I think we would look much differently if we were to "just pick up a Bible" today. Some of that is good and some of it is bad. Generally speaking, some of our conclusions and stances are based on seeing negative implications of doing things a different way. Thus, we do what we do to positively protect the church, our families, etc. While we want to "practice New Testament Christianity," our arguments have sometimes evolved based on culture, personal experience, taste, fear, unity, and a host of other reasons.
Other times, are responses are based on situations that no longer exist. The culture has changed and old problems have vanished while new ones have popped up. However, we sometimes try to fit everything in the old box and it doesn't work very well.
Higher education puts us in touch with information we would never know existed. While many things we learn from it are not salvation issues, they still enhance our appreciation of Scripture and the men and women who went before us. The things we learn may draw us closer to God and lead to greater commitment.

Comment by George Little on March 4, 2009 at 10:54pm

I am noticing a shift in the way churches are approaching the Bible. They are becoming a lot more encouraging of their members reading it for themselves. The Roman Catholic church since Vatican II has been very positive about their members reading their Bible. With the decreasing numbers of Christians in churches that have a strict adherence to a historical creed or confession of faith, Christians find themselves in churches where the scriptures are the final answer or authority in discussions of belief. In this context there is an increased willingness of people to follow the scriptures and not feel pressured into submitting to interpretations of others. Many would see this as anarchic but I find it a good direction.

Creeds, confessions of faith, articles (no matter how many) were intended to maintain adherence to a core set of beliefs and bring about a form of unity. However, in the long term, that did not work. It largely produced Christian communities that were more concerned about forms and not functions. It just produced heinz variety of churches that further confused the world about our "universal" message. We in Churches of Christ were not immune to this. But that is another discussion.

I like living in a time when a local church is open to growth and development of understanding of God's word rather than a slavish submission to the thinking current centuries ago. I am glad our people do not feel as pressured as they once were to submit to the interpretation of scriptures delivered to us in brother magazines.

Oh, that Christ would be our message, our salvation, our source of fellowship, our example an our hope.

Comment by Gerald White on March 4, 2009 at 10:28pm

I have read all the comments and find this a very good discussion. This is my first time to enter a blog but the area of discussion is near and dear to my heart.
Some background, I was raised in a small church in central Missouri that did nothing but hold gospel meetings. Once in a great while someone would express and interest and would be shown the gospel. I thank God that I moved from the middle America to New England to California and then to Arkansas. Each area had an outreach but mostly took care of the church family.
My wife and I started campaigning about 10 years ago. We were astonished at the number of folks that had never learned anything except old testament stories, Christmas and Easter. Due to health problems, we gave up the road and started working in the inner city. We found the search for God to be there everyday. After, three years, health issues would not permit us to continue on a regular basis.

I have said all of this to say, I now know why Jesus said go and teach. There are so many looking but need the help of people to show the simplicity of the gospel. To show the plan of salvation is simple. There are a few that might study the Word and understand the plan but our experience says, we need to follow the great commission and go teach.

Sorry, for being so windy but felt I could tie my thoughts with our experience.

Comment by David Nelson on March 4, 2009 at 2:19pm

There is reading the Bible and then there is reading the Bible. Of course when one reads the Scripture one comes away with some understanding. But when we read the Bible we read it through the lens of our place in the world (culture, langauge, values, worldview, etc.) and there are many places where our world intersects the ancient world. But I think what we ought to strive for is to hear the word through the ears (and mind) of the original audience. This is where teachers come in. The church needs to be in conversation with those who have an understanding of the biblical world so they can help us hear the word of God more clearly.

But I am not saying that one can't pick up a Bible and read it and learn about God, salvation, and life. But being in conversation with others (our faith community, the faith community before us, etc.) can help us to be taught "more accurately the way of God." And in hearing the word of God more clearly will help us love him more dearly and follow him more nearly, day by day.

Thanks for the conversation!

Comment by Bill Bowman on March 4, 2009 at 12:57pm

Let's look at this from another angle. Is it possible from John 6:37-44 that one can conclude that the Father must first do something with that person before he is to be given to Christ? Eph. 2:4-5 states that while we were dead in sin, God's mercy made us alive with Christ. The teacher fits in here somewhere, but where?
I was in a conversation 10 years ago with the head of the New Testament studies at Dallas Theological
Seminary. Harold Honer who recently died. He believed in the utter depravity of man. He said man cannot get saved without God first taking His own action. Then he quoted Eph. 2:8-9. What is the answer?

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