Do We Have or Should We Have Elders That Are Leaders? - Missional Outreach Network for the Missional Church2024-03-29T01:03:53Zhttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/forum/topics/do-we-have-or-should-we-have?groupUrl=leadershipandvision&feed=yes&xn_auth=noJust to clarify, in my previo…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2016-10-16:2422312:Comment:1070232016-10-16T05:00:11.563ZCameron Blairhttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/CameronJohnBlair
<p>Just to clarify, in my previous comment I was not implying that worldly success was of no value. It is very valuable, but while it can show wisdom in particular fields, it is not primary in showing spiritual wisdom and a willingness to love and care for His people as overseers. Sometimes things just require more than a glance or a 2D snapshot. </p>
<p>Just to clarify, in my previous comment I was not implying that worldly success was of no value. It is very valuable, but while it can show wisdom in particular fields, it is not primary in showing spiritual wisdom and a willingness to love and care for His people as overseers. Sometimes things just require more than a glance or a 2D snapshot. </p> I agree with you that there i…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2016-10-16:2422312:Comment:1069272016-10-16T04:43:09.467ZCameron Blairhttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/CameronJohnBlair
<p>I agree with you that there is a significant lack of qualified/trained elders/leaders. I have found there is a significant lack of those able to discern and lead well within church leadership, and often the theory of Scripture can be left in their heads as theory and not processed to be applied or understood practically.</p>
<p>Another obstacle that can present itself is pride; Jack Hayford's words come to mind where he said, "Everyone acknowledges the expertise of the trained professional…</p>
<p>I agree with you that there is a significant lack of qualified/trained elders/leaders. I have found there is a significant lack of those able to discern and lead well within church leadership, and often the theory of Scripture can be left in their heads as theory and not processed to be applied or understood practically.</p>
<p>Another obstacle that can present itself is pride; Jack Hayford's words come to mind where he said, "Everyone acknowledges the expertise of the trained professional until we come to theology.Then, everyone's an expert!"</p>
<p>I have found, in my experience, that it is often worldly success and successes within the church that cause someone to be seen as a capable church leader; these are what distinguish a man to be seen as one of quality. It is not as much about wisdom and leadership in and among overseers as it is about assets, measurable success, the theory of ministry, and sometimes church politics. </p>
<p><br/>Jack W. Hayford, Prayer Is Invading the Impossible (Orlando, FL: Bridge-Logos, 1977), 7.</p>
<p></p> Hi,
" Behold, how good an…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2012-07-22:2422312:Comment:735822012-07-22T05:27:10.416ZYFJLD Solutionshttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/YFJLDSolutions
<p>Hi,</p>
<p> <font face="Times New Roman, serif" size="3"> " Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! Psalms 133:1" A Very Dearly Beloved Brother a very Blessed greetings in the most matchless name of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ, i deem it as a great hounour to talk to you after a long time, i consider this back as…</font></p>
<p>Hi,</p>
<p> <font face="Times New Roman, serif" size="3"> " Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! Psalms 133:1" A Very Dearly Beloved Brother a very Blessed greetings in the most matchless name of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ, i deem it as a great hounour to talk to you after a long time, i consider this back as a divine connection from the lord after a long time, i was so blessed to see what you have been doing for the expansion of the kingdom of God and i was touched by it, i was in much prayer and intersession before i am writing to you this way, i am praising Jesus for your zeal in serving him and also leading many into the lords kingdom by preaching uncompromisingly the powerful word of the lord and making the bride ready for the coming king, i am pondered in my spirit when i prayed to hook up with you and work under your leadership for the glory of God here in India. please do let me know the way we can get in touch and do great things for Jesus, i am in much prayer in the spirit seeking his face for his divine leading, thank you once again for your toil for the mighty name of the lord, </font></p> Hi,
" Behold, how good an…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2012-07-22:2422312:Comment:735812012-07-22T05:26:50.085ZYFJLD Solutionshttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/YFJLDSolutions
<p>Hi,</p>
<p> <font face="Times New Roman, serif" size="3"> " Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! Psalms 133:1" A Very Dearly Beloved Brother a very Blessed greetings in the most matchless name of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ, i deem it as a great hounour to talk to you after a long time, i consider this back as…</font></p>
<p>Hi,</p>
<p> <font face="Times New Roman, serif" size="3"> " Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! Psalms 133:1" A Very Dearly Beloved Brother a very Blessed greetings in the most matchless name of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ, i deem it as a great hounour to talk to you after a long time, i consider this back as a divine connection from the lord after a long time, i was so blessed to see what you have been doing for the expansion of the kingdom of God and i was touched by it, i was in much prayer and intersession before i am writing to you this way, i am praising Jesus for your zeal in serving him and also leading many into the lords kingdom by preaching uncompromisingly the powerful word of the lord and making the bride ready for the coming king, i am pondered in my spirit when i prayed to hook up with you and work under your leadership for the glory of God here in India. please do let me know the way we can get in touch and do great things for Jesus, i am in much prayer in the spirit seeking his face for his divine leading, thank you once again for your toil for the mighty name of the lord, </font></p> Hi,
" Behold, how good an…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2012-07-22:2422312:Comment:732322012-07-22T05:26:21.985ZYFJLD Solutionshttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/YFJLDSolutions
<p>Hi,</p>
<p> <font face="Times New Roman, serif" size="3"> " Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! Psalms 133:1" A Very Dearly Beloved Brother a very Blessed greetings in the most matchless name of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ, i deem it as a great hounour to talk to you after a long time, i consider this back as…</font></p>
<p>Hi,</p>
<p> <font face="Times New Roman, serif" size="3"> " Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! Psalms 133:1" A Very Dearly Beloved Brother a very Blessed greetings in the most matchless name of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ, i deem it as a great hounour to talk to you after a long time, i consider this back as a divine connection from the lord after a long time, i was so blessed to see what you have been doing for the expansion of the kingdom of God and i was touched by it, i was in much prayer and intersession before i am writing to you this way, i am praising Jesus for your zeal in serving him and also leading many into the lords kingdom by preaching uncompromisingly the powerful word of the lord and making the bride ready for the coming king, i am pondered in my spirit when i prayed to hook up with you and work under your leadership for the glory of God here in India. please do let me know the way we can get in touch and do great things for Jesus, i am in much prayer in the spirit seeking his face for his divine leading, thank you once again for your toil for the mighty name of the lord, </font></p> Thanks for sharing that link.…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2010-12-21:2422312:Comment:517342010-12-21T15:34:07.710ZPeter Hornehttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/PeterHorne
<p>Thanks for sharing that link. I tend to agree with Fitch's perspective (the article that your link discussed). I generally try and avoid using the the word "leader" around the church. It's too ambiguous. We have elders, deacons, ministry leaders, we lead prayers and the guys passing the communion plates are also "leading in worship". Businesses have leaders, and their role is fairly well defined, but not so with church leaders.</p>
<p><br></br>In the past year I taught a series on the…</p>
<p>Thanks for sharing that link. I tend to agree with Fitch's perspective (the article that your link discussed). I generally try and avoid using the the word "leader" around the church. It's too ambiguous. We have elders, deacons, ministry leaders, we lead prayers and the guys passing the communion plates are also "leading in worship". Businesses have leaders, and their role is fairly well defined, but not so with church leaders.</p>
<p><br/>In the past year I taught a series on the Pastorals and posed the same question. The "qualifications" of elders are given twice, but where is their job description? I recently heard someone describe the elders' responsibilities as "church administrators". That job description gave them permission to oversee every aspect of the church from where the snow shovels were stored, to how long the service was, to the size of the missions budget, to whether the church secretary could use her budget to buy new letterhead. When you're the "administrators" delegation becomes more difficult.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>On the other hand if you're the "shepherds" concerned for the spiritual well-being of the flock, then do you care about the snow shovels or letterhead? Yes, the missions budget or length of worship service might still be a concern, but primarily as they impact souls.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>However, I think in this discussion the term leadership refers to "planning" and setting the vision and direction of the church. Whose responsibility is that? Just the elders? Elders and minister (evangelist)? Do deacons have a role in the decision making? Do members have a voice? What does the Bible say? Romans 12:8 refers to the spiritual gift of leadership. Is that only found within the eldership? How do we allow others to exercise this gift?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Sorry if that's just a bunch of random thoughts that don't really address the initial question, but thanks for asking it. If anyone finds an elders job description in 2 Titus somewhere, please share it with the group!</p>
<p><cite>James Nored said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.missionaloutreachnetwork.com/forum/topics/do-we-have-or-should-we-have?groupUrl=leadershipandvision&#2422312Comment51603"><div><p>Here is an interesting <a target="_self" href="http://bobhyatt.typepad.com/bobblog/2010/12/is-leadership-biblical-a-few-reasons-to-say-yes.html">article</a> on this subject of leadership that you raise.</p>
</div>
</blockquote> Here is an interesting articl…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2010-12-18:2422312:Comment:516032010-12-18T00:11:58.445ZJames Noredhttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/JamesNored
<p>Here is an interesting <a target="_self" href="http://bobhyatt.typepad.com/bobblog/2010/12/is-leadership-biblical-a-few-reasons-to-say-yes.html">article</a> on this subject of leadership that you raise.</p>
<p>Here is an interesting <a target="_self" href="http://bobhyatt.typepad.com/bobblog/2010/12/is-leadership-biblical-a-few-reasons-to-say-yes.html">article</a> on this subject of leadership that you raise.</p> The word "sound" in sound doc…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2010-12-17:2422312:Comment:515732010-12-17T20:38:07.026ZJames Noredhttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/JamesNored
<br></br>The word "sound" in sound doctrine is a word that means "healthy." It has taken on a popular meaning not intended in the text. Everyone knows, for instance, that a church that is looking for a preacher who preaches "sound doctrine" is a really conservative church.
<br />
The types of teaching that are warned against are things such as the denial that Christ came in the flesh and substitution of the doctrine of grace for that of the doctrine of works. And there was a moral issue behind…
<br/>The word "sound" in sound doctrine is a word that means "healthy." It has taken on a popular meaning not intended in the text. Everyone knows, for instance, that a church that is looking for a preacher who preaches "sound doctrine" is a really conservative church.
<br />
The types of teaching that are warned against are things such as the denial that Christ came in the flesh and substitution of the doctrine of grace for that of the doctrine of works. And there was a moral issue behind this--these teachers were seeking to lead others astray for their own financial gain. They had a corrupt character. The Bible actually does not talk about "false teaching," but about "false teachers." We have all probably taught something that we later believe was incorrect.<br />
<br/>
<cite>Bill Bowman said:</cite><blockquote cite="http://www.missionaloutreachnetwork.com/forum/topics/do-we-have-or-should-we-have?groupUrl=leadershipandvision&xg_source=activity#2422312Comment51571"><div><p>The two things mentioned were to be able to teach and to demonstrate he had a well run family. The other features of the elder had to do with his personal life... Titus was told an elder should demonstrate he can manage his family well. He should be a good teacher in sound doctrine and stand up to the person who misleads the church. That's it from Paul as I see it. I see little direction for the elder. But he is the pastor. If we were to take the warning of Acts 20 to the Ephesisan elders, Paul's main concern was not for the Elders to allow false teaching to take place and cause a rupture in the church.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I would conclude that the emphasis the Bible places on Elders is making sure what is taught is the best spiritual food given to the flock. They should be experts in handling the Word of Truth. Bill b</p>
<p> </p>
<p>During the next two centuries the church elders did not do too well. Origen got the church on the kick of baptizing infants, for example.</p>
</div>
</blockquote> The two things mentioned wer…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2010-12-17:2422312:Comment:515712010-12-17T20:22:22.997ZBill Bowmanhttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/BillBowman
<p>The two things mentioned were to be able to teach and to demonstrate he had a well run family. The other features of the elder had to do with his personal life... Titus was told an elder should demonstrate he can manage his family well. He should be a good teacher in sound doctrine and stand up to the person who misleads the church. That's it from Paul as I see it. I see little direction for the elder. But he is the pastor. If we were to take the warning of Acts 20 to the Ephesisan…</p>
<p>The two things mentioned were to be able to teach and to demonstrate he had a well run family. The other features of the elder had to do with his personal life... Titus was told an elder should demonstrate he can manage his family well. He should be a good teacher in sound doctrine and stand up to the person who misleads the church. That's it from Paul as I see it. I see little direction for the elder. But he is the pastor. If we were to take the warning of Acts 20 to the Ephesisan elders, Paul's main concern was not for the Elders to allow false teaching to take place and cause a rupture in the church.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I would conclude that the emphasis the Bible places on Elders is making sure what is taught is the best spiritual food given to the flock. They should be experts in handling the Word of Truth. Bill b</p>
<p> </p>
<p>During the next two centuries the church elders did not do too well. Origen got the church on the kick of baptizing infants, for example.</p> Relative to Shepherding and L…tag:missionalnetwork.ning.com,2010-12-17:2422312:Comment:515672010-12-17T19:25:47.489ZLynn S. Noredhttp://missionalnetwork.ning.com/profile/LynnSNored
<p>Relative to Shepherding and Leadership: You probably would not separate shepherding from leadership because a true biblical understanding of shepherding includes leadership ( He <span style="text-decoration: underline;">leads</span> me beside the still waters......). But, typically leadership as popularly understood is not Shepherding ---.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You have a point about elderships acting as a "committee" with dysfunctional habits. In the Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Lencioni…</p>
<p>Relative to Shepherding and Leadership: You probably would not separate shepherding from leadership because a true biblical understanding of shepherding includes leadership ( He <span style="text-decoration: underline;">leads</span> me beside the still waters......). But, typically leadership as popularly understood is not Shepherding ---.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>You have a point about elderships acting as a "committee" with dysfunctional habits. In the Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Lencioni ( <a href="http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0787960756/179-6828596-7266354?SubscriptionId=0EMV44A9A5YT1RVDGZ82">http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0787960756/179-6828596-7266354?SubscriptionId=0EMV44A9A5YT1RVDGZ82</a> )</p>
<p>one of the major dysfunctions is operating by consensus. Your point about the reluctance to empowerment is also accurate ( whether deacons as example of appointment by apostles or others). There are team principles that would prevent such errors, but elderships are not trained for this at all</p>
<p><br/> <cite>James Nored said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.missionaloutreachnetwork.com/forum/topics/do-we-have-or-should-we-have?groupUrl=leadershipandvision&commentId=2422312%3AComment%3A51565&xg_source=msg_com_gr_forum#2422312Comment51565"><div><p>Dad, I understand your categories. But I would not separate shepherding from leadership, as if these were somehow distinct. By shepherding in people's personal lives through servanthood, counseling, mentoring, friendship, etc., shepherds earn the right to speak into people's lives.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It is hard to see how a group "leads" in the classic sense. What you usually get are a series of compromises, lowest common denominator, etc. Lynn Anderson makes the point that in the OT God appointed leaders, but in the NT, apparently, according to how we typically view leadership, God switched to a committee.</p>
<p>I don't have all the answers here, but it seems like in reality we are reluctant to empower any leader. It goes against our democratic tendencies as Americans.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>